Suspension Help

[Harleigh Quinn]

I can tell by the wording of this response that nothing before it was read, or my hesitancy would have been delineated and understood, therefore I will not entertain it any longer.

[Bigshot]

All posts were read. And your concerns would have been addressed with a simple phone call.

[Harleigh Quinn]

Okay, I'm going to attempt to be civil:

As I stated in the previous posts, I respect on delivery system over another. This thread was begun on a basis of advice. What I wanted advice on was illustrated in the letter I had composed to someone else and chose to post here.

Every post recieved from you told me nothing, but tried to sell me everything. No matter how anyone can look at that, the conclusion would be the same.

Andrew took a different approach. He offered advice from his experience. He addressed the issue at hand. He did not attempt to sell me anything outright, addressed exactly what I asked, and all in all was more amicable to a constructive conversation.

It seems that in society today people expect everything they throw at you to be taken at face value with no background or explanation. Apparently Andrew comes from the old and more respectful school of actually intaking the information, identifying the problem and addressing exactly what needs to be solved.

IOW, he did the exact opposite of what you did.

You do not wish to be wrong in this, but in all candid honesty, there is no way you can be right due to the approach you elected to take, which was that of the big blustery politician who speaks as though he's smiling jack with all the solutions to your problems but never showing he had the personal experience to illustrate he actually understood your problem.

IOW, like a salesman.

I had no reason to call anyone because you gave me none, so it is not my faoult if you now feel slighted due how I elected to respond to what was laid before me in the way that I did.

Also, if you had just said in beginning to call them and exactly why, which you did elect to do in these two previous posts, I may have entertained it.

I will not take responsibility for someone elses actions.

That onus falls upon your own shoulders.

[Ryephile]

HQ: I received your PM but I feel it would be better to reply in your thread, I hope you don't mind.


The whole point of my suspension work was to bring the R53 chassis up a level in overall grip and predictability on Hoosier R6's on the racetrack. I track my MINI frequently [7 days this year for example]. To achieve this the suspension pivots up front were relocated and bump-steer compensated. The whole car sits very low for minimum CG height while retaining acceptable roll center geometry. The end result is somewhere between the R53 GP and the R56 suspension geometry. The front Anti dive is between the two generations to provide greater forward bite at the expense of a slightly more numb steering feel and more torque steer than a stock R53, but not as much as a stock R56. The big difference is the spherical FCAB, which eliminates all slop from both generations' steering input.

Most of the changes are up front. I lowered the outer ball joint, raised the inner ball joint, raised the steering rack both those deltas combined to keep the tie rod planar with the control arm and minimize bump-steer. I'm using a shorter damper body with stock-levels of total stroke. The result is essentially a raised subframe in relation to the strut tower and body, and this means I can run the car very low while keeping the control arms "about level" in reference to the ground plane. All of the relocation spacers were made from either 6061 aluminum [outer ball joint] or mild steel [inner balljoint and steering rack spacers]. Of course I used high-grade bolts, since they had to be slightly longer.

The rear suspension is a simple R56 trailing arm conversion with a Powerflex polyurethane insert to keep lateral compliance low.

In the end, the car performs excellent, even with "low end" TSW KW V3 coilovers. The only car to clearly outperform my setup this year was a Lotus 2-eleven with wider tires and $5x price coilovers. With my MINI setup costing <$40k and his costing well over double that, I'm quite pleased. The KW's damping curves are perfectly acceptable for all but the most competitive race car. I don't run wheel-to-wheel or ever plan to, and I'm also not highly funded, so the dollar-to-function value factor does matter for me.

If you're really serious about laying down track records then a MINI isn't your best first choice as a platform, even if it is a great car and fantastic fun. I'm not out there to kill the clock, but to have an enjoyable driving experience while not embarrassing myself.

I'm out of time at the moment, but considering your budget there's an easy bill of materials to get you to the 90%ile of the MINI's peak performance.

Cheers,
Ryan

[Bigshot]

Originally Posted by Harleigh Quinn

Okay, I'm going to attempt to be civil:

As I stated in the previous posts, I respect on delivery system over another. This thread was begun on a basis of advice. What I wanted advice on was illustrated in the letter I had composed to someone else and chose to post here.

Every post recieved from you told me nothing, but tried to sell me everything. No matter how anyone can look at that, the conclusion would be the same.

Andrew took a different approach. He offered advice from his experience. He addressed the issue at hand. He did not attempt to sell me anything outright, addressed exactly what I asked, and all in all was more amicable to a constructive conversation.

It seems that in society today people expect everything they throw at you to be taken at face value with no background or explanation. Apparently Andrew comes from the old and more respectful school of actually intaking the information, identifying the problem and addressing exactly what needs to be solved.

IOW, he did the exact opposite of what you did.

You do not wish to be wrong in this, but in all candid honesty, there is no way you can be right due to the approach you elected to take, which was that of the big blustery politician who speaks as though he's smiling jack with all the solutions to your problems but never showing he had the personal experience to illustrate he actually understood your problem.

IOW, like a salesman.

I had no reason to call anyone because you gave me none, so it is not my faoult if you now feel slighted due how I elected to respond to what was laid before me in the way that I did.

Also, if you had just said in beginning to call them and exactly why, which you did elect to do in these two previous posts, I may have entertained it.

I will not take responsibility for someone elses actions.

That onus falls upon your own shoulders.

My very first post was specifically about contacting someone else with vastly more experience than you or I with the MINI suspension. I was not trying to sell you something, just trying to give you more info on a product that really seemed to be more to what you were trying to do. The fact that you seemed to have already dismissed the KW's as a viable option seemed to be based on inaccurate info concerning the MINI. I thought after reading the referenced post you would have wanted to get some more info from the folks that actually spent the time to put together those coilovers.

Like I said before.......you choose how to spend your money.

[Harleigh Quinn]

Originally Posted by Bigshot

Here is a great read on probably the best compromise for coilovers.


http://www.motoringalliance.com/foru...-you-want.html

From your posts it doesn't seem like you are really concerned about racing, just about comfort. If that is the case get something that has actually been designed around the MINI. Not just some off the wall product. And don't get hung up on the brand. The Ohlins and even the Motons are not a system designed for the street, so why even consider them?

Bigshot, I'm quoting your above post because this is getting tiresome.

The link referenced in the post leads me directly to a thread that is posted by a vendor selling his product. There is no lead in, no "why do you want such and such a product when there is this available." nothing but a salesman selling his product IN THE FIRST LINE and then when pressed for more information he added more information ABOUT THE PRODUCT HE WAS SELLING.

There was no comparison to anything else. Just information to his product.

EVERYONE talks up their product. How well they tuned something to such and such and application to fit your needs, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I thought I illustrated in my previous to this posts exactly why I would not be interested in this type of delivery. I honestly don't know how else to say that. Never try to sell me on something because I will immediately suspect you. Leading me to a thread of the vendor selling his product falls in that category.

I have been burned too many times to just immediately take that as an "end all be all".....

[Harleigh Quinn]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

HQ: I received your PM but I feel it would be better to reply in your thread, I hope you don't mind.


The whole point of my suspension work was to bring the R53 chassis up a level in overall grip and predictability on Hoosier R6's on the racetrack. I track my MINI frequently [7 days this year for example]. To achieve this the suspension pivots up front were relocated and bump-steer compensated. The whole car sits very low for minimum CG height while retaining acceptable roll center geometry. The end result is somewhere between the R53 GP and the R56 suspension geometry. The front Anti dive is between the two generations to provide greater forward bite at the expense of a slightly more numb steering feel and more torque steer than a stock R53, but not as much as a stock R56. The big difference is the spherical FCAB, which eliminates all slop from both generations' steering input.

Most of the changes are up front. I lowered the outer ball joint, raised the inner ball joint, raised the steering rack both those deltas combined to keep the tie rod planar with the control arm and minimize bump-steer. I'm using a shorter damper body with stock-levels of total stroke. The result is essentially a raised subframe in relation to the strut tower and body, and this means I can run the car very low while keeping the control arms "about level" in reference to the ground plane. All of the relocation spacers were made from either 6061 aluminum [outer ball joint] or mild steel [inner balljoint and steering rack spacers]. Of course I used high-grade bolts, since they had to be slightly longer.

The rear suspension is a simple R56 trailing arm conversion with a Powerflex polyurethane insert to keep lateral compliance low.

In the end, the car performs excellent, even with "low end" TSW KW V3 coilovers. The only car to clearly outperform my setup this year was a Lotus 2-eleven with wider tires and $5x price coilovers. With my MINI setup costing <$40k and his costing well over double that, I'm quite pleased. The KW's damping curves are perfectly acceptable for all but the most competitive race car. I don't run wheel-to-wheel or ever plan to, and I'm also not highly funded, so the dollar-to-function value factor does matter for me.

If you're really serious about laying down track records then a MINI isn't your best first choice as a platform, even if it is a great car and fantastic fun. I'm not out there to kill the clock, but to have an enjoyable driving experience while not embarrassing myself.

I'm out of time at the moment, but considering your budget there's an easy bill of materials to get you to the 90%ile of the MINI's peak performance.

Cheers,
Ryan

Ryan,

It seems you have taken an affront to my "issue" with KW coilovers, while ignoring that my issue was the blatant attempt to sell me on a product.

I am not alien to suspension design and geometry, anti-dive and the like. You take a 4000lb jaguar XJ-S, with it's insanely designed rear suspension that was designed on a napkin in a pub to fall within a specific manufacturing budget, and attempt to correct THAT, which is something I did before I sold the car. And lets not even begin on the over designed front suspension. I always loved how they over designed the front and then slopped on the rear.

Only Jaguar.......

At any rate, I recognize that your car is lowered extremely as well as tracked, something I do not plan to do, as stated, and also why I was curious that you stated you also wanted to maintain the everyday drive-ability of your vehicle in that write up, when even by the pictures it was obvious it would barely make it over the first speed bump you met.

That having been said, I am no stranger to either having to manufacture parts or having a part I cannot make manufactured and therefore there is no need to attempt to talk down to me as you did.

I asked a civil question and I see no reason as to why one came into an inquiry PM'd to someone with a chip on their shoulder and a blatant attempt to defend someone who will not admit they had no other purpose but to drive me toward another vendor.

Ironic as they also stated that every "fly by night says their product is the greatest thing on earth" (I am ad-libbing) which is standard practice in the old school of sales (down grade and discredit your competitor so you can get the advantage)

If you wish I could repost the question posed to you here in this forum via cut and paste, so anyone can see it was in a less than insulting wording, thus responded to via your above manner.

Apparently the gauntlet has been thrown so I am not one to shirk from the challenge.

I am sorry this could not have been a meeting of minds, as I intended via the PM.

(And please don't come back and say I "misread the intention of your post" which is the classic cop out of anyone called out in a forum. Anyone reading this can see the intention of your post. Though I will admit that beginning [I"civilly"[/i] was a great way to draw me in. I almost thought the post was intended to be helpful until I read on....)

[Harleigh Quinn]

Actually, Ryan, I decided to just post the message I PM'd you, so there can be no confusion as to what I am referring to:

"Customized suspension

I have posted a thread asking for suspension help and someone posted your link of your suspension build up/modification, and I found it very interesting.

I wanted to ask a few questions, if you didn't mind?

How did you drop your front spindles? Did you purchase them or is there another way?

What did you have to do to mod your coilover mount and why did you have to mod it?

What was involved in relocating the front control arm pivots?

How did you raise the steering rack and what are the two shims shown in the first pic on the michigan motoring thread this relates to?

I have many more questions, but that will do for now. I really would appreciate your insight.

Thank you and regards,

-H"


I would really like understand how that warranted the response I was given in a public forum....

[howsoonisnow1985]

Be nice guys.
That said, I am glad you guys are posting, instead of PMing, cause I am learning about these high end race suspension (JRZ, Motons, Ohlins, etc) history, and love reyphile's ingenuity in regards to his suspension set-up.
Might add that suspension might bump you up out of stock class and render MINI uncompetitive in higher class for auto-x.

[Ryephile]

Wow, not the best way to earn resepect or friendship here. You ask me very specific questions and then say you have no interest in lowering or tracking your Mini. If you wanted help from the vets here you'd say your goals and intentions and be grateful we're trying to help at all. I'm not sure why you took offense to my post, I was simply trying to help and at no time did I make a reference to your displeasure of BigShots pointer. KW coilovers aren't high end like JRZ, Moton, Nitron, or Penske. My point was that you don't need to waste your money unless you are going competitve or simply have money to burn.

You appear to be hung up on piston size and geometry changes, but you have yet to ask any real fundamental questions. How are you dissatisfied with the Minis handling, what's your application, and your budget?

Cheers,
Ryan

[Harleigh Quinn]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Wow, not the best way to earn resepect or friendship here. You ask me very specific questions and then say you have no interest in lowering or tracking your Mini. If you wanted help from the vets here you'd say your goals and intentions and be grateful we're trying to help at all. I'm not sure why you took offense to my post, I was simply trying to help and at no time did I make a reference to your displeasure of BigShots pointer. KW coilovers aren't high end like JRZ, Moton, Nitron, or Penske. My point was that you don't need to waste your money unless you are going competitve or simply have money to burn.

You appear to be hung up on piston size and geometry changes, but you have yet to ask any real fundamental questions. How are you dissatisfied with the Minis handling, what's your application, and your budget?

Cheers,
Ryan

Everything is perception and perception in a forum is delineated via wording.

I made a point of not only reposting what I PMd you, but also highlighted what I took affront to in your post. I also saw that KWs were the only other shock you went into detail on, which I know were shown in your write-up after the BCs broke, but also were the only other shock mentioned in this thread, by one other person. It had gotten tiresome to revisit an issue that I had shown I was already exasperated over.

So when seeing something I asked privately posted publicly and in a pointed manner, I can see no other motive at that point than what I described.
I won't be confronted and then made to look as though I initiated the ugliness....

Now, that having been said, if you are willing to "let bygones be bygones", we can attempt to revisit this conversation in a more civilized manner?

But really, you don't have to do me any "favors"....I wouldn't want to feel as though I owe someone, or taking away from one's precious time....

(I can also do back handed comments as well.)

[Bigshot]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Wow, not the best way to earn resepect or friendship here. You ask me very specific questions and then say you have no interest in lowering or tracking your Mini. If you wanted help from the vets here you'd say your goals and intentions and be grateful we're trying to help at all. I'm not sure why you took offense to my post, I was simply trying to help and at no time did I make a reference to your displeasure of BigShots pointer. KW coilovers aren't high end like JRZ, Moton, Nitron, or Penske. My point was that you don't need to waste your money unless you are going competitve or simply have money to burn.

You appear to be hung up on piston size and geometry changes, but you have yet to ask any real fundamental questions. How are you dissatisfied with the Minis handling, what's your application, and your budget?

Cheers,
Ryan

Not sure what HQ wants......as he stated he is just a sprited daily driver.

HQ..we are trying to help dude, but it really seems like all you want is NAM's stamp of approval on the system you have already decided on.
Good luck and hope you enjoy whatever you get (from the guy not trying to sell you anything......)

[Harleigh Quinn]

Admin. Please lock this thread. Thank you.