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I've had this car for 29 days / 3200 miles..
I want to dig in here and start messing with stuff! So far it's just been an aux-in install for my iPod and big bouncy tires.. I've been reading a lot on here and other sites and it sure seems like for around 2K you get 20 to 30 hp. (Stage 1, Stage 2 kits)
Now, for 2K you can get a sweet head from revolution -> so how much power would that be worth on an otherwise unmodified R52?
Seems like it would be a great place to start and if I wanted to add an ecu here, a CAI there, cat-back, header - it would just be bonus after that. Or am I totally wrong?
side-note: thinking hard about the M7 USS & there's a local ad for a Phantom Grip LSD in a Helix diff (new!) for $150, but that's pry not something I need right now, since I can't actually burn out on dry pavement. Or maybe I'm just not revving high enough!!
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
Don't bother with the head. That's the wrong place to start. You first should focus on getting power past the crappy factory airbox and out of thefactory exhaust. Buy one of the numerous intake kits (get one with a heat shield, ie-DDM) and a decent cat back. If you feel the desire to go further, do it but by this point you'll see that even small power gains in the R50 do not come cheap and in the is not worth it past a few HP, better throttle response and a different sound. Granted, I did gain some gas mileage, though...
Don't bother with the head. That's the wrong place to start. You first should focus on getting power past the crappy factory airbox and out of thefactory exhaust. Buy one of the numerous intake kits (get one with a heat shield, ie-DDM) and a decent cat back. If you feel the desire to go further, do it but by this point you'll see that even small power gains in the R50 do not come cheap and in the is not worth it past a few HP, better throttle response and a different sound. Granted, I did gain some gas mileage, though...
I see what you're saying, and I know that's where people usually start, but I'm not willing to spend $600 on a cat back for 6 hp. I'll pry go ahead with something like the DDM, but I'm not convinced they offer much advantage over a high-flow drop in except maybe past 5K rpm, I'm much more interested in a performance increase across the band.
I know that S models have a more heavy-duty bottom end, but that's to handle the increased power from the forced induction, not the cause of the power.. so I am thinking since the engines are virtually identical otherwise, vastly improving my top end would be the way to go to get closer to S-type performance, but without going to forced induction. Don't get me wrong; air intake and exhaust flow are certainly important, just not the primary reason Coopers make less power.
Thanks for the response!
BTW I don't care at all how it sounds! The quieter, the better. Think sleeper.
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
I think suspension mods and performance tires and wheels are some of the best ways to make the Cooper quicker!
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Koni yellows, H-sport springs, H-sport rear control arms, powerflex front control arm bushings, OMP lower front strut brace, Ireland fixed camber plates, Alta 22mm rear sway, Colbolt carbon fiber rear strut bar, 15x6.5 Rota group N's (12 lbs), 205/50/15 Bfgoodrich G-force Sport tires, Magnaflow cat-back, intake filter, Spec stage 1 clutch, Powerflex upper and lower motor mounts...MORE!! IT'S JUSTACOOPER!!
Nice. I just put Potenza Pole Positions on - stock 16s though. Besides the USS I was wondering about upper / lower strut braces & rear sway. Did you do all the suspension mods around the same time? I mean, if you piece-at-a-time it is each one noticably better than before?
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
It took me about 5 years to complete my suspension ! I did every piece one at a time because #1- I am a starving college student and #2- doing it piece by piece is better because you get to see how each part effected the car. Do you want to do a lot of suspension mods or just some? What don't you like about the way your car handles now? How do you want the car to handle?
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Koni yellows, H-sport springs, H-sport rear control arms, powerflex front control arm bushings, OMP lower front strut brace, Ireland fixed camber plates, Alta 22mm rear sway, Colbolt carbon fiber rear strut bar, 15x6.5 Rota group N's (12 lbs), 205/50/15 Bfgoodrich G-force Sport tires, Magnaflow cat-back, intake filter, Spec stage 1 clutch, Powerflex upper and lower motor mounts...MORE!! IT'S JUSTACOOPER!!
I know that S models have a more heavy-duty bottom end, but that's to handle the increased power from the forced induction, not the cause of the power.. so I am thinking since the engines are virtually identical otherwise, vastly improving my top end would be the way to go to get closer to S-type performance, but without going to forced induction. Don't get me wrong; air intake and exhaust flow are certainly important, just not the primary reason Coopers make less power.
It's an nice thought, but unfortunately, the non-SC'd engine doesnt' work that way.
$600 for 6 hp is about average... swapping the head may gain you more, but will cost substantially more... and require custom tuning to get the most out of (even more $).
IMHO, call a tuner (RMW only comes to mind) and discuss your goals and budget.
There are already some good threads in this forum about modding the Cooper engine and costs involved.
__________________ "Market research is bunk... the public don't know what they want, it is my job to tell them" - Sir Alec Issigonis
It took me about 5 years to complete my suspension ! I did every piece one at a time because #1- I am a starving college student and #2- doing it piece by piece is better because you get to see how each part effected the car. Do you want to do a lot of suspension mods or just some? What don't you like about the way your car handles now? How do you want the car to handle?
I'd like to do as few as possible - just want to go faster & have more fun !
I think afa suspension I'll just start with the M7 USS. I haven't read all the suspension upgrade posts yet, so I don't really know yet what questions I might have.
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
It's an nice thought, but unfortunately, the non-SC'd engine doesnt' work that way.
$600 for 6 hp is about average... swapping the head may gain you more, but will cost substantially more... and require custom tuning to get the most out of (even more $).
IMHO, call a tuner (RMW only comes to mind) and discuss your goals and budget.
There are already some good threads in this forum about modding the Cooper engine and costs involved.
I emailed Jan the other day, and he said "we have not put the head on a cooper yet but we are building some cooper race engines" so I'm looking forward to seeing the results of that. I figured in the meantime I would post here and see what kind of ideas I could come up with besides everthing that has been posted about CAI / cat back / etc. Like actual engine mods..
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
Last edited by 475nM; 05-08-2008 at 10:59 AM.
Reason: font
Well I have a 2003 Cooper with a Magnaflow cat-back exhaust, custom made intake, SPEC stage 1 clutch, rear seat delete, Powerflex upper and lower motor mounts, 15x6.5 Rota group N's(12lb) 205/50/15 Bfgoodrich G-force sport tires. All these things did not add massive power, but it helped out with weight, sound and response.
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Koni yellows, H-sport springs, H-sport rear control arms, powerflex front control arm bushings, OMP lower front strut brace, Ireland fixed camber plates, Alta 22mm rear sway, Colbolt carbon fiber rear strut bar, 15x6.5 Rota group N's (12 lbs), 205/50/15 Bfgoodrich G-force Sport tires, Magnaflow cat-back, intake filter, Spec stage 1 clutch, Powerflex upper and lower motor mounts...MORE!! IT'S JUSTACOOPER!!
I see what you're saying, and I know that's where people usually start, but I'm not willing to spend $600 on a cat back for 6 hp. I'll pry go ahead with something like the DDM, but I'm not convinced they offer much advantage over a high-flow drop in except maybe past 5K rpm, I'm much more interested in a performance increase across the band.
I know that S models have a more heavy-duty bottom end, but that's to handle the increased power from the forced induction, not the cause of the power.. so I am thinking since the engines are virtually identical otherwise, vastly improving my top end would be the way to go to get closer to S-type performance, but without going to forced induction. Don't get me wrong; air intake and exhaust flow are certainly important, just not the primary reason Coopers make less power.
Thanks for the response!
BTW I don't care at all how it sounds! The quieter, the better. Think sleeper.
To get STOCK Cooper S performance out of a Cooper will cost you 8-10k. Minimum. And the stock Cooper S isn't very fast... .
Like I normally tell people, you're going to spend a LOT less money and have a LOT less headache selling your car and buying a Cooper S than you are trying to make a Cooper as fast.
I'd like to do as few as possible - just want to go faster & have more fun !
I think afa suspension I'll just start with the M7 USS. I haven't read all the suspension upgrade posts yet, so I don't really know yet what questions I might have.
The USS isn't a very good choice for an upgraded suspension. I'd start with a good set of coilovers. Cross if you have some extra cash (Expensive at around $2100) or Megan if you don't (Around $850)
The head is going to be more of an investment no matter whether you do it first or last. If you do it first, you will probably not get more than 10 hp out of it. Maybe less without a tune. increasing the flow through the head without increasing the flow through the intake and exhaust is not going to help much. You need a better flowing intake and exhaust for the head to help much. The intake doesn't have to be too expensive though, shop around. The $300 intakes aren't worth a crap in my opinion unless you really like the way they look.
As for the USS, I think it is overkill to stiffen the chassis that much without stiffening the rest of the suspension. I don't think you will be able to stress the chassis enough on the stock suspension to see the benefits of it. I would start by adding sway bars for suspension then maybe coilovers if that's the direction you want to go. My $.02
Last edited by AliceCooperWA; 05-09-2008 at 08:39 PM.
The head is going to be more of an investment no matter whether you do it first or last. If you do it first, you will probably not get more than 10 hp out of it. Maybe less without a tune. increasing the flow through the head without increasing the flow through the intake and exhaust is not going to help much. You need a better flowing intake and exhaust for the head to help much. The intake doesn't have to be too expensive though, shop around. The $300 intakes aren't worth a crap in my opinion unless you really like the way they look.
As for the USS, I think it is overkill to stiffen the chassis that much without stiffening the rest of the suspension. I don't think you will be able to stress the chassis enough on the stock suspension to see the benefits of it. I would start by adding sway bars for suspension then maybe coilovers if that's the direction you want to go. My $.02
So no USS, but with the RMW head, good intake / exhaust and of course a tune I would see an increase of about....
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
So no USS, but with the RMW head, good intake / exhaust and of course a tune I would see an increase of about....
With a FULL custom exhaust (None of that catback crap), a proper intake, a head that can flow some extra air, and a dyno tune, you'll likely see 120-130 whp (30-40 HP over stock). Throw in some high compression pistons, a bottom end rebuild to take the extra power, and some bigger injectors and you'll probably gain another 10-15 whp. Aka, still 10-20 whp shy of a stock R53...
There was a thread a while back about putting in individual throttle bodies. I don't recall what the gain was, probably good for another 5 HP, maybe a bit more.
With a FULL custom exhaust (None of that catback crap), a proper intake, a head that can flow some extra air, and a dyno tune, you'll likely see 120-130 whp (30-40 HP over stock).
that's what I'm talking about!
I'd like to start at the top (of the engine) because I can do that work.
Is the Apollo $300 ??!! I didn't price it cuz I couldn't find the application for my car.
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
The USS isn't a very good choice for an upgraded suspension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceCooperWA
As for the USS, I think it is overkill to stiffen the chassis that much without stiffening the rest of the suspension. I don't think you will be able to stress the chassis enough on the stock suspension to see the benefits of it.
I disagree about the USS. Do you guys own cabrios? The cabrio frame flexes enough that it degrades handling. An underbrace such as M7 or TSW helps to bring it back closer to the level of a hardtop. I and other cabrio owners have experienced very good results with an underbrace. I actually feel that on the cabrio you don't gain the full benefits of other suspension mods until you stiffen the frame.
I disagree about the USS. Do you guys own cabrios? The cabrio frame flexes enough that it degrades handling. An underbrace such as M7 or TSW helps to bring it back closer to the level of a hardtop. I and other cabrio owners have experienced very good results with an underbrace. I actually feel that on the cabrio you don't gain the full benefits of other suspension mods until you stiffen the frame.
A lot of that stiffening will happen with stiffer sway bars and a coilover setup. I actually didn't initially catch that it was a cabrio in question, but I still think a good set of coilovers and a sway bar is going to make the car handle better than slapping on a USS. The USS might do more on a cabrio, but I can't see how it'd do THAT much.
Weren't there some issues with the USS on the cabrios with fitment? I recall Gnatster specifically testing the USS from TSW to make sure it fit right, and reported that it fit better than M7's version...
A lot of that stiffening will happen with stiffer sway bars and a coilover setup. I actually didn't initially catch that it was a cabrio in question, but I still think a good set of coilovers and a sway bar is going to make the car handle better than slapping on a USS. The USS might do more on a cabrio, but I can't see how it'd do THAT much.
Weren't there some issues with the USS on the cabrios with fitment? I recall Gnatster specifically testing the USS from TSW to make sure it fit right, and reported that it fit better than M7's version...
Yes, some people reported fitment issues with the M7 and some exhausts, notably Milltek.
Here is BlimeyCabrio's writeup of the USS on a cabrio, and my own experience was similar (I did the opposite order, first rear sway then USS). Coilovers and sway bars are good handling mods, but they do not negate the effect of an underbrace for the cabrio. If you put coilovers on a flopping chassis, they don't have a chance to perform to their full potential.
Hmm... Honestly, I feel so much difference in chassis flex between our '03 MCS (w/ 60K) and '07 MCc (w/ under 5K), that I'm seriously considering a brace as the first performance mod for the car...
__________________ "Market research is bunk... the public don't know what they want, it is my job to tell them" - Sir Alec Issigonis
With a FULL custom exhaust (None of that catback crap), a proper intake, a head that can flow some extra air, and a dyno tune, you'll likely see 120-130 whp (30-40 HP over stock). Throw in some high compression pistons, a bottom end rebuild to take the extra power, and some bigger injectors and you'll probably gain another 10-15 whp. Aka, still 10-20 whp shy of a stock R53...
There was a thread a while back about putting in individual throttle bodies. I don't recall what the gain was, probably good for another 5 HP, maybe a bit more.
What is the estimated cost of this upgrade to the 130 HP range? Or 140 HP range?
Parts and for labor?
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#43 Street Modified (SM) Class SCCA Hawaii Region
2005-2009 Solo Run Off and Points Champion (Hawaii)(2nd 2006 Points)
2005-2008 Overall PAX: 8th 2006, 7th 2007, Tied 10th 2008.
2010-2011 Modified FWD RallyCross (Points Champion) http://www.sccahawaii.org/pics2008/s.../img_38944.jpg
Thanks for more info on the USS. I really haven't done any suspension mods on anything (except lowering my motorcycle) so the input is greatly appreciated.
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
Last edited by 475nM; 05-10-2008 at 04:50 PM.
Reason: multiple post reply
What is the estimated cost of this upgrade to the 130 HP range? Or 140 HP range?
Parts and for labor?
and will head intake & exhaust really get you there? Head & intake could conceivably be done in my garage, I know (used to know?) a guy that does full custom exhausts for cheap if you bring beer (he did my '69 Impala -> 2 1/2" duals full length w/ x-over for $260)
So then I'd only be in for parts and the dyno tune...
On a Coop is it worth it to go for something like the RMW Jesus head? Or are you going to get as good results from a full porting of the stocker? Seems like the bigger exhaust on the RMW would be pretty significant performance wise, but reworking the stock head might be cheaper.
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'05 Cool Blue R52 I'm keeping the beer can
I'll pry go ahead with something like the DDM, but I'm not convinced they offer much advantage over a high-flow drop in except maybe past 5K rpm, I'm much more interested in a performance increase across the band.
The quieter, the better. Think sleeper. 
! I did every piece one at a time because #1- I am a starving college student and #2- doing it piece by piece is better because you get to see how each part effected the car. Do you want to do a lot of suspension mods or just some? What don't you like about the way your car handles now? How do you want the car to handle?
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