There was a dyno day at Mach V of stock, unmodified MINIs. The R50 came out at 104.9 hp, 101.4 torque at the wheels.

 

Thanks Der Abt for all the info. I'm going to take mine soon for a dyno run just to see what I have.. Just a couple of questions for you. I see some numbers list at flywheel and some at tire and with the drivetrain loss. Are you or whoever using some kind of formula for the flywheel and drivetrain loss numbers? Looked as if hardly no 2 had the same drivetrian loss which is probably expected but how do you know unless you dyno'ed the engine and then put it in the car and dyno it there to get the difference?? I've heard a manual will have a loss of 15-17% and auto 18-22% Back in 1972 manufactures started listing HP on factory cars as "net' HP which is at the ground and not flywheel HP. So is it safe to assume that the MINI HP ratings from the factory are "at the ground" numbers?? Plus with every different Dyno brand you will probably get different readings. All that being said, that's why I want to take mine just to see for myself. I'll post my numbers on here when I do it.

 

You're welcome

To answer a few of your questions.

Indeed, different dynos give different results.
But, the thing is, when we talk about realistic numbers, the results are never far apart.
The difference between a Maha and a Superflow is less than 2hp and 5Nm.
You see, there are several factors you need to take into account.
How strong was the car in stock form ?
What dyno is being used ?
Can the dyno operator be trusted ?
This one is very important.
If your car produces numbers that are way too optimistic, ask questions or change dyno shop.
There are other factors that are important too.
What are the correction numbers that the dyno and the dyno operator use ?
Is the hood open or closed ?
The weather ?
...

These are just some of the things you need to think about.

Also, people who dyno at 111 flywheel hp stock, are not going to get as far with software compared to someone who has 115 at the flywheel in stock form.
So, the strength of your Cooper in stock form, is important.

Regarding horsepower at the wheels and horsepower at the flywheel.
The reason why some dyno sheets show one and other dyno sheets show the other, depends on what the dyno operator prefers and which type of dyno it is.

I know tuners who give dyno sheets that show the horsepower at the wheels, others use KW and some other give the horsepower at the flywheel (which is the same as KW).

The best thing you can do, is indeed dyno the car yourself and use the same dyno to see how much the car has gained after certain modifications.
All I can say is, make the right choice.
When you see a results that is WAY too optimistic, go to another dyno shop.

Kind regards

Der Abt

 

nice collection and thanks. curious to know if all of these were manual transmission? i have the 2003 R50 cvt and have the Afe intake and will be installing the megan racing exhaust tomorrow. i am supposed to call jan at revolution mini next week to discuss a tune in the near future. just wondering if you have any info as how much has been done or can safely be done to a CVT R50. also how much does the CVT rob performance? any better in SD or "manual" mode?

 

1. Der Abt: seriously, I like my Cooper, but you are out of your freaking mind.
2. Getting HP out of a Cooper? Admirable but maybe handling is where you need to spend your money.
3. If you do insist on getting HP out of a Coop, give Jan at RMW a call. He just might have something to give your pents a rise.

 

Regarding the drivetrain losses, I know them because I was there when some of those cars were on the dyno.
The others, I know from the forums and they simply told me what the numbers were (flywheel hp <-> wheel hp, or they simply said what the drivetrain loss was) and what the tuner told them.
Trust me, of all the Coopers I have seen, drivetrain losses were between 15/16% - 23%.
The most common being around 20%.

 

Those were all manuals.

Regarding the CVT, it's a good system, the manual is better for acceleration, but the CVT also has a few advantages.
Here's something you should read to see why ?

http://www.mini2.com/forum/513203-post183.html

 

1)I'm glad you like your Cooper. However, I'm not out of my mind. Sorry

2)Indeed, these things handle like karts and with minor upgrades here and there, they can become very fast through the corners.
But handling will only get you so far, at one point when you're racing on a track (Nürburgring driver over here) power will also become an issue.
Power, handling and brakes play a big role.

3)I know plenty of people who can provide that service, but thanks for the tip

Kind regards

Der Abt

 

/

 

My '06 Cooper "claims" to have 115 HP from the factory. Is this not rated at the wheel?? after drivetrain loss.. Not sure if it did of course, didn't dyno it and now have added, exhaust, CAI w/heatshield, and uni-chip.

 

Stock Coopers are suppose to have 115hp at the flywheel.
If you take a drivetrain loss of 15%, this puts you at 100hp at the wheels stock.
If you take a drivetrain loss of 20%, this puts you at 96hp at the wheels stock.
Now, most of them produce between 107hp (the lowest I've seen) and 115/116hp (the highest I've seen).
So let's say most Coopers produce about 112/113hp on average.

I see you now have UniChip combined with intake with heatshield and exhaust.
That's a good setup.

 

I tend to agree with all of your findings...I have had my car dynoed and it had 105hp at the wheels with a Miltek cat back, HAI and JCW software. I know that there is improvements to be made, no matter how small. I like the idea of being an underdog anyway and making power with a car that is often overlooked here in the states gets plenty of attention. Thanks for your efforts and I am looking forward to contributing to your research as well as my own.

Chad

 

With pleasure Chad

Kind regards

Der Abt

 

Wait a minute, 30 some HP increase with just a cold air intake and a new exhaust? Are you sure about that initial 88 hp number?

 

That's a Mini One, not a Cooper.

A Mini One has about 90hp stock.
The reason why a One gains so much power, is because it's a detuned version of the Cooper.
Part of that detuning is the software that restricts the engine power.
So with a software upgrade a One can gain a lot of that restricted power back and on top of that the same amount of power that you gain with a Cooper.

So, here's what the gains are for a Mini One:

Stock : 90hp
Software : +25/30hp = 115/120hp

 

Have you done a dyno to check the effect, (if any), of changing engine oil from the recommended Castrol to Royal Purple? Seems unlikely there would be anything....but, when I changed to Royal Purple my '03 MC seemed to have a bit more zip. Could have been some kind of "placebo" effect though.

Thanks...

 

Well, small things like oil and type of gas can make a difference.
Thing is, it's gonna be a very small difference that you hardly feel.

Of course, it never hurts to use a good brand of oil and high octane gas.

Over here, some tuners say that Shell is the best brand to get because they get better results with it.

However, you have to understand that on our cars this effect will be limited.
Let's say if you drive a BMW M3 or a Mercedes C63 AMG or a Nissan 350Z or a car like that, there the effect will be bigger.

I once saw a couple of tests about this subject.
They used different brands of fuel on different cars.
Every car was put on the dyno, and everytime they changed brand, the tank and fuel lines were completely drained.
The result was that Shell did indeed give a little bit more power, but the thing is, that difference in power was mostly to be gained by cars with bigger engines.
You could clearly see a Subaru Impreza WRX Sti make a couple of more horsepower, same with the M3 they tested.
But the cars with the smaller engines, they barely gained something.

So as a conclusion: yes, it is good to use high octane fuel and a good brand of oil etc etc ... but the gains will be more noticable in cars with bigger engines.

Kind regards

Der Abt

 

That is a very realistic assumption.
With that mod list, I would also put you somewhere between 124 and 126hp.

The Getrag and Midland gearbox losses are very similar.
The only big difference is that the Getrag is stronger.

Kind regards

Der Abt

 

Supersprint had dynoed the stock Mini Cooper at 120 hp flywheel, and Superchips has dynoed the car in stock form at 123hp flywheel. I have also seen some other dyno graphs that stock Mini Coopers all produced more than 120hp at the flywheel, best of all was 124 hp. Are they all wrong? (especially Superchips which is a very famoys company) Usually Us cars have less power than the same European, but in this case MINI claims the same for EU and US, so i guess sth is hiding there and maybe US models have less real hp, just a guess.

 

Superchips (and many other tuners) also claims to take your Cooper to 130hp (flywheel) with just software.
Which is not possible.
K&N claims a gain of 10hp with an open intake.
Which is not possible.
...
See what I mean ?

Now, if you want to believe all that.
That's your right.

Like I said before, a lot of claims have been made.
I've even seen claims of Coopers putting down 130hp (flywheel) in stock form.
The guy even had a dyno sheet.
Put him up against a car that has 130hp stock and see what happens.
A stock Cooper with 130hp (flywheel) simply ain't gonna happen.
Sure, some of them might seem to dyno at 120/125/130hp stock, but like I said before, let me operate the dyno and I'll make your Cooper run 500hp stock.
Not that difficult really.
You see, dyno differences are one thing, but the guy who operates it, is another.

I know that certain cars are underrated.
Example : BMW 335i
This car produces 10/15hp more compared to what BMW claims.
And others (to give an example, the AUDI S4) are overrated.

But when it comes to Mini Coopers, the ratings are more or less correct.

Like I have said before, I've seen many Coopers dyno.
Of all the Coopers that I've seen, most of them produced between 110hp and 115hp at the flywheel.
Some were below 110hp and just 1 put down 116hp in stock form.

Based on my experience and from what I've seen and heard from so many tuners, a stock Cooper does not produce 120 or 125 and certainly not 130hp at the flywheel.

If you have to believe every claim anyone has ever made, our Coopers would have +200hp with just some basic mods.
Again, if you want to believe that, that's your right.

That's why I started this thread.
To show you what people in real life conditions have produced on different dyno's all over the world.
These dyno sheets show the real numbers.

Of course you can take a Cooper up to 130 and 140 and 150hp.
But it's gonna take many more modifications than some people thought.
Lohen takes your car up to 150hp for almost $7000.
Mod list:

Superchips Bluefin with Lohen LO3 map
Milltek Cat-back exhaust
Modified manifold & removable high-flow cat
Pipercross Viper kit
Iridium spark plugs
Lohen Performance Head
Camshaft
Exhaust valves
Lohen 58mm Throttle body
Replacement gaskets & head bolts

Hp : 150 (flywheel)

Add to that list, gasoline cooling for $1500 and you got a 157hp Cooper.
But that 157hp comes at a high price.

Look at the Kelleners setup.
Their price is lower (less modifications so that's normal) and they get about 144hp.
Mod list:

Software
Intake (modified BMC CDA)
exhaust
cat.
polished heads
cams
gasoline cooling
iridium spark plugs

Hp : 144 (flywheel)

This is what it takes to get a Cooper up to 140/150/155hp.

And Coopers with software, cold intake, exhaust, header, cat. have been known to dyno at about 125-133hp.
With just software, intake and exhaust (no headers and cat.), 120-125hp is the most you will see.

Of course, it also depends on how much power your Cooper puts down stock.

In the end, you can believe whatever you want.

Kind regards

Der Abt

 

I have no reason not to believe what u say, and you say it with proofs (dyno sheets). But why would Superchips dyno the car 123hp and say their software gives 8 hp, than dyno it at 115 hp which is the factory claim and add lets say 10 hp with their software? What do they gain when they say that it produces more than the stock?
Lohen also claims 130hp with Bluefin, Iridium spark plugs and a panel filter. Would you think this is realistic or not?
And last thing, we dont know if EU cars are identical to the US ones, cause usually they are not!

 

You're asking the wrong person.
Many tuners have made these claims.
Why do they do it ?
Most tuners claim to bring your car to 130hp with just software.
So, when you want to be in the game as a tuner, you have to make the same claims as others.
So, when a customer comes over and you tune his car, you simply adjust the dyno results, the customer expects 130hp with just software, so give him what he wants.
Or better said, make him believe that he has the number you promised him.

That setup is good for maybe 122-123hp.
Like I said, most tuners claim to bring your car to 130hp with just software.
Sad but true.

They are the same.
I've talked to many Americans and seen many pictures of their cars and the parts.
I'm sure it's 99% the same.

 

/

 

Just for a start, the whole header/catalytic converter is not the same for Eu and US cars.
MC 2001/01 EU hader/catalyst : http://minifans.info/original/R50/Co...8/ill-18_0475/
MC 2001/01 US header/catalyst : http://minifans.info/original/R50/Co...8/ill-18_0475/

The silencers are the same for US and EU.

So there IS a difference.

 

That's why I said they are about 99% the same, not 100%.
Those differences are NOT going to give the US version more power if that's what you think.

Kind regards

Der Abt