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What was your favorite / least favorite part of MOTD this year?
Welcome to North American Motoring !
Welcome to North American Motoring,
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!
k...we did it because we loved to do it for our fellow MINI/Mini friends not to make money on them
PittStop MINI hosted 2 events, MINI Monte Carlo Night, and Dragon Draggin'
We did it for the same reason, and made no money!
My wife personaly hosted Little Dragons with Kamofrog, they did it for the kids, and made no money!
Mark took a cut to cover costs, but it certainly wasn't enough to make a profit from our events.
There is a difference in helping plan an event at MOTD, and being the person fiscally responsible if the event ends up in the red. Trust me I have the ulcers to prove it.
You should be commended for your work and dedication. MOTD needs more like you.
What exactly were the costs that Mark incurred in connection with your events?
Call
MOTD has a lot like me, I could give you a list of probably no less than 25 people, probably more who give enormous amounts of blood, sweat and tears (and money out of their pockets) to MOTD every year, so that Everyone can enjoy themselves.
Mark's costs, what we "paid" him for:
Credit card processing fees, his time for setting up our "products" in the NAM store and generating all reports, and dealing with all changes and headaches we threw his way.
It cost us less (money and time) to have Mark take care of all that stuff, than it would have if we had set it up through our club website, and we would not have had our event's participant lists integrated with the event planner.
Like Steve said, every event that goes thru Mark requires code to be created to process it via the NAM Store. Some he can reuse from previous years, some requires a little more work. Since everyone is paying with Visa, there are also processing fees involved. Then to boot, he took most of those proceeds and covered half of the tent fee so we could have the upper parking lot free.
To address the 5K donation that DCMM made in 2007. They did not intend on that happening. They had set the ticket cost and started selling tickets and at the last minute a large sponsor stepped forward to help out. At that time it was kinda too late to re-do the ticket cost, so when the dust settled, they had way more than they thought they would. Aslo keep in mind, they really were only gonna host the Welcome dinner that year, but since no one else was stepping up to host the Farewell dinner, they took on that also at the last minute to save the day.
You should be commended for your work and dedication. MOTD needs more like you.
What exactly were the costs that Mark incurred in connection with your events?
Call
The transaction costs that our credit card processor charges me when we run things through the NAM store. My time for writing the code for getting it the products into the NAM store (lots o javascript to make sure we don't have foul ups), custom code for each group to run online reports and export out to Excel so they could manage their particular event. My flight out to Fontana, fuel costs while I'm there, staying 10 days this year. Depending on the particular event my "take" was between 6-10% for these events. Hardly enough to skip off to the Cayman Islands much less pay my mortgage, car payment, cloth my kids, etc. Remember, except for vendors, I one of the few people that work on this type of thing full time (and have since 2003).
The net here is that I have always tried to make it fair for everyone stepping up to assist in part of the event and also try to insure that the group helping, especially clubs, can generate some income to help support their club, their favorite charity, etc.
All the above said it is comments like the above that make my blood boil because there is not sufficient appreciation of all the time, code, energy, and negotiation/coordination with so many people to make this event come off. It is the primary reason that, before this year's event I NEVER wanted to do it again. Only in meeting those that did offer their time, energy, thanks, and constructive advice did I actually get interested in doing it again next year. Now I'm again unsure of having any type of involvement in the event.
I have to ask....I see that you neither registered or volunteered in any way for the event. Why is it that it is so easy to throw stones when you weren't involved in making this event come together?
The transaction costs that our credit card processor charges me when we run things through the NAM store. My time for writing the code for getting it the products into the NAM store (lots o javascript to make sure we don't have foul ups), custom code for each group to run online reports and export out to Excel so they could manage their particular event. My flight out to Fontana, fuel costs while I'm there, staying 10 days this year. Depending on the particular event my "take" was between 6-10% for these events. Hardly enough to skip off to the Cayman Islands much less pay my mortgage, car payment, cloth my kids, etc. Remember, except for vendors, I one of the few people that work on this type of thing full time (and have since 2003).
The net here is that I have always tried to make it fair for everyone stepping up to assist in part of the event and also try to insure that the group helping, especially clubs, can generate some income to help support their club, their favorite charity, etc.
All the above said it is comments like the above that make my blood boil because there is not sufficient appreciation of all the time, code, energy, and negotiation/coordination with so many people to make this event come off. It is the primary reason that, before this year's event I NEVER wanted to do it again. Only in meeting those that did offer their time, energy, thanks, and constructive advice did I actually get interested in doing it again next year. Now I'm again unsure of having any type of involvement in the event.
I have to ask....I see that you neither registered or volunteered in any way for the event. Why is it that it is so easy to throw stones when you weren't involved in making this event come together?
Mark, if you had communicated this information more clearly much of this would be understood. Lord knows you have a great place to do it here on the board.
As for you getting your blood boiling over comments such as mine...chill out. You have to roll with the punches. Life can be a ***** sometimes especially when one purposely looks for a pat on the back. Like you have now made very clear you are the hired gun around here. You do it for a living. Most everyone else is a volunteer and must do it for the love of it.
As for my registration for the event...I registered my car. I didn't register for anything else because I didn't participate in anything else. Sure I came on the premises at Fontana to eat lunch and I made purchases from some of the vendors but you got your cut out of that so that shouldn't be an issue.
As for my volunteering for the 2008 MOTD event...I've done my part in past years and would still be involved if it hadn't been turned into such a commercial, money making enterprise. That's not what it was founded on. I remember the early years...I'm not so sure you want to go there. Besides, I was busy volunteering for a number of unofficial events that didn't cost anyone a dime.
My intent is not to be mean-spirited about the issues that have raised it's ugly head last year and this year. My opinion was asked & I gave it...if you don't want my opinion don't ask for it. That's one area I don't volunteer for.
Call, I mean this sincerely, where are you getting the notion that there are mounds of money going into people's pockets for MOTD?
Was last year perfect? No, there was a bunch of stuff I didn't like about last year. And I agree some people stayed away because of that. But you also have to factor in the economy, other MINI events (like the upcoming MTTS) and individual situations (time off from work, etc).
I think the smaller crowd works better for MOTD anyway. I don't think anyone really has complaints about the lack of people this year.
Guys, by your own words in these few posts alone you indicate the BrewSwap fee was increased due to the decision to support a charity which has nothing to do with MOTD.
We have already read posts here where DCCM was able to make a $5K donation to a charity back home from the proceeds they made last year. I haven't seen any posts about how much they raised this year or what they did with the profits, if any.
My information has vendors paying around $800 more or less. I do know Mark gets a cut from almost if not all events where funds are charged. We have no idea what his arrangements are with Fontana. I'm not suggesting it is anything untoward but please don't paint him as a saint in all this. Surely he has a love for what he is doing but he is making money on the event, nothing wrong with that either...as long as the margins are reasonable.
Bottom line for me is do your fund raising for charity back home...back home. When I want to make a contribution I'll let you know.
On the other hand, you want to do a charity for the local area, let everyone know up front and I bet you raise a nice sum that would make us all proud. You might try trusting your fellow MINI/Mini enthusists to do the right thing.
I'd be the first in line.
I'm with you on the forced donation to enter the swap. I would say can that and have 50/50s and raffles where that money can be donated. More then likely next year if it is presented like it was this year I'll be drinking my beer on the porch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call
Guys, by your own words in these few posts alone you indicate the BrewSwap fee was increased due to the decision to support a charity which has nothing to do with MOTD.
We have already read posts here where DCCM was able to make a $5K donation to a charity back home from the proceeds they made last year. I haven't seen any posts about how much they raised this year or what they did with the profits, if any.
My information has vendors paying around $800 more or less. I do know Mark gets a cut from almost if not all events where funds are charged. We have no idea what his arrangements are with Fontana. I'm not suggesting it is anything untoward but please don't paint him as a saint in all this. Surely he has a love for what he is doing but he is making money on the event, nothing wrong with that either...as long as the margins are reasonable.
Bottom line for me is do your fund raising for charity back home...back home. When I want to make a contribution I'll let you know.
On the other hand, you want to do a charity for the local area, let everyone know up front and I bet you raise a nice sum that would make us all proud. You might try trusting your fellow MINI/Mini enthusists to do the right thing.
I'd be the first in line.
Call
__________________ Jibeho 2006 PW/B MCS, Alta 17%, One Balling, JCW CAI with ITG filter, 18% tint PW/B #64
I'm with you on the forced donation to enter the swap. I would say can that and have 50/50s and raffles where that money can be donated. More then likely next year if it is presented like it was this year I'll be drinking my beer on the porch
Just like Mielnicki all Mark charged me for was the code and the credit card processing fee which he gets charged for. And I know that's legitimate as I know what Visa, MC and Discover charge for transactions. It was a minimal cost given the overall fees taken in for the swap.
Jibeho and Snooter,
I'll be sorry to see you guys absent from the swap next year. I'm not lowering the price and it'll be going to charity again.
History has shown me that people aren't that generous when you simply ask. If anyone would like to step up to run the swap and do it as a free or low-cost event I'd be willing to step aside. But as long as I'm involved I plan to keep it going as is. I won't raise the cost again but I won't lower it either unless the charity tells me they don't need the money.
Can we get receipts for this donation for tax purposes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrewSwapGuy
Call,
Just like Mielnicki all Mark charged me for was the code and the credit card processing fee which he gets charged for. And I know that's legitimate as I know what Visa, MC and Discover charge for transactions. It was a minimal cost given the overall fees taken in for the swap.
Jibeho and Snooter,
I'll be sorry to see you guys absent from the swap next year. I'm not lowering the price and it'll be going to charity again.
History has shown me that people aren't that generous when you simply ask. If anyone would like to step up to run the swap and do it as a free or low-cost event I'd be willing to step aside. But as long as I'm involved I plan to keep it going as is. I won't raise the cost again but I won't lower it either unless the charity tells me they don't need the money.
__________________ Jibeho 2006 PW/B MCS, Alta 17%, One Balling, JCW CAI with ITG filter, 18% tint PW/B #64
Can we get receipts for this donation for tax purposes?
If everyone donated individually at the swap then yes it would be easy to get receipts. The charity is/was willing to do that. But since it's built into the registration costs there's no way to do that. You'd have to break down how much of the reg fee went to charity per person, was the service provided greater than the value of the donation, etc.
And I'm not claiming it as a tax deduction on my return so don't think I'm doing it this way for tax benefits.
I was not one of the originals but have attended every MOTD since then. And each one has been more organized & smoothly ran than the 1st. I, for one, appreciate what you have done for this event. Other than living in Dogpatch for a week & not getting enough pulled pork, I have no complaints
I was a Miata owner for many years & here is what happened to their Dragon event. It started out grassroots but people wanted more! So it became more organized, vendors started attending & everything was great, so they thought. Well, the complaints came in, just like what we are hearing. The organizers gave up, the vendors stopped coming & guess what, the attendees complained again. You are damned if you do & damned if you don't
I say, do what is best for you, Mark You don't need all the aggravation. I would have given up long before.
Once again, thanks for a great MOTD We will probably not be back next year. Too many other MINI events that we want to attend
Lois
__________________ GIMLI 08 CLUBMAN S
TRYING TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE
Just playing devils advocate here, but this could turn into a slippery slope. Stating that something is a certain percent bound for a charity and not providing a tax receipt upon request could end someone under the proverbial "Heat Lamp"
This is a good reason to make the donation voluntary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrewSwapGuy
If everyone donated individually at the swap then yes it would be easy to get receipts. The charity is/was willing to do that. But since it's built into the registration costs there's no way to do that. You'd have to break down how much of the reg fee went to charity per person, was the service provided greater than the value of the donation, etc.
And I'm not claiming it as a tax deduction on my return so don't think I'm doing it this way for tax benefits.
__________________ Jibeho 2006 PW/B MCS, Alta 17%, One Balling, JCW CAI with ITG filter, 18% tint PW/B #64
My wife liked that the MOTD shirt was in a feminine cut (thanks). There was a little irritability in ordering two shirts al a carte, along with the passenger lanyards (if it's only a lanyard, don't call it a "package"? just a thought), but that only took about a half hour of frustration to navigate.
If folks are going to be on the porch, I'd like to get the band back together.
We were told there would be weekend guide handouts for the info booth, and that didn't happen.
My wife liked that the MOTD shirt was in a feminine cut (thanks). There was a little irritability in ordering two shirts al a carte, along with the passenger lanyards (if it's only a lanyard, don't call it a "package"? just a thought), but that only took about a half hour of frustration to navigate.
If folks are going to be on the porch, I'd like to get the band back together.
We were told there would be weekend guide handouts for the info booth, and that didn't happen.
We tried having "the band" on the porch last year and NO ONE showed up, even though there were many "gee, sure, I'll participate"s. This year, not a single soul even offered to play. It was successful 2 years ago, however, and went well with the Cigar Salon. We were able to make a donation to a group of musicians in New Orleans who had been all but wiped out by Katrina.
If you'd like to get the band together for next year's MOTD, feel free to do so. Just remember that, even though the Cigar Salon takes place OUTSIDE, ON the porch, there is always room there for more. The only confict I can see might have to do with the "Welcome Party" and music going on INSIDE, as many there do not share our "love of the leaf".
My wife liked that the MOTD shirt was in a feminine cut (thanks). There was a little irritability in ordering two shirts al a carte, along with the passenger lanyards (if it's only a lanyard, don't call it a "package"? just a thought), but that only took about a half hour of frustration to navigate.
If folks are going to be on the porch, I'd like to get the band back together.
We were told there would be weekend guide handouts for the info booth, and that didn't happen.
I never described it as a package. It was either the Driver Seat Registration or the Passenger seat registration. On the registration info page I listed what each would include. Al a carte is what people have wanted since the beginning of the event so we've kept it that way. As for weekend guides we've been delivering those electronically via email and here on the site prior to the event. This type of delivery is to keep costs down (I still pay someone to put the guide together). If we printed guides for everyone it would add additional cost to the event. For example:
The guide was 26 pages this year. Assuming that I could get double sided copies at a cost of $0.05 per page (double sided) that would result in a cost of $0.65 per copy. Given we had 639 registered I would probably have ordered 650 copies resulting in a cost of $422.50 excluding tax, fuel needed to pick them up (you would, at a minimum have to go to Maryville to pick them up since the weight of this many copies would make the shipping cost prohibitive). This doesn't include the amount I pay to the designer for their services in putting this together as well as all the other MOTD items like the grille badge design, cling design, etc.
You're probably asking why I went to this much detail. The reason is to demonstrate there there is a lot of consideration and planning that goes into something as simple as how we distribute the welcome guide.
Frankly I don't know what to say. I'm damned for trying to add some coordination to the event, engage clubs in the organizational process, spend my time writing software to support it, enticing vendors to attend, try to do my best to make it enjoyable for everyone...all the while having to provide 100% disclosure to everyone not directly involved in the coordination of the elements of the event.
Given that I work in this community around the clock I have to, by definition, let a lot roll off my back and, with very few exceptions, I'm as laid back as anyone can be. It was my cabin that almost had a tree fall on it before setting the hillside and it didn't phase me. I lost a printer in the power surge and had to spend money on replacing that as well. Stuff happens and I roll with it.
I've heard the complaints in past years and each year we have tried to resolve the issues. I know that you can't make everyone happy, no matter what you do but it seems that if we take steps to resolve the issues then we get complaints because of what we tried to do. For example people complained last year that we had the lots full of vendors. This year we got the tent so that we could free up the majority of the lots. The complaints we got this year were that the vendors weren't together and that we didn't have enough vendors. A few of the vendors complained that we had scheduled drives which took away from their foot traffic. It doesn't seem like there is a real way to meet everyone's needs 100%.
Its my impression that the main issues at this point (and have been for several years) are:
- the original attendees of MOTD feel that the event is too big
- there is too much structure to the event
- a lot of vendors attend the event (they are members of the MINI community as well)
- people need to eat but don't want to pay high costs for dinners
- I have to generate some income to support my time involved with coordinating and managing the event
There are several options to address all the above concerns.
1) We choose another date for the event that is not the same weekend as the original event so that those that don't want to be involved with the large group won't be impacted.
2) Those that don't want to be in the large group can choose another weekend.
3) We ask vendors not to attend and therefore remove any of the product and service giveaways they do.
4) Dinners have always been optional. Many of the cabins have kitchens and there are food options in Bryson City, Robbinsville, and Maryville. Everyone gets to make their choice on what they do food-wise.
5) We (I) stop doing any level of coordination or management for the event (online or in person).
As I've said elsewhere and other coordinators of the event have said...I'm very comfortable (and becoming more motivated each day) in totally removing myself from the picture for MOTD in the future. If that is what people want than I'm not interested in getting any further in the way than apparently I already am.
I sympathize with the original attendees that feel the event's gotten too large but it's a natural progression and the increased organization is a byproduct of having to manage larger crowds. The Dragon is a public road and Fontana and the other resorts are not specifically reserved for the event so nothings stopping them from just showing up as many choose to do anyways. They aren't going to change when they have the event and the hundreds of other people who think the events also a good idea are still going to show up on the same weekend.
For the number of people that attended, and the number of things to do I think registration for MOTD was a great value and the whole event went incredibly smoothly. To attend a major car show often would cost $40-80 for one day of entertainment, this was a lot better than a lot of the typical shows held in convention centers and for my $145 in total registration fees I got four days of entertainment. Sure there was gas and lodging on top of that but registration alone seemed to be a relative bargain. I think the amount of structure and pricing is overall pretty good with a need for some small tweaks here and there (and lower prices are always better but that would just be increased value).
Vendors complaining that the drives reduced their foot traffic is like the gift shops at Disney complaining the roller coasters take away customers. This is a great place for Vendors to advertise, interact with their customers, and make a little money but any way you look at it MOTD is about MINI owners coming together to drive and interact, not a product expo. I like that there are vendors at the event since it's good to be able to talk with people face to face to discuss ideas and many dragon attendees don't live near any of the major vendors. If there were more vendors I don't see that as a bad thing, but at the same time if fewer vendors decided to show up that's wouldn't bother me either. I didn't have any major installs done to my car at the dragon, bought a few things that I could've just as easily ordered online (although probably wouldn't have bought at all) but did really enjoy getting to talk with the vendors about different products, concepts, and setups, I probably could've had similar conversations if the vendors had just shown up as enthusiasts though.
The meals are entirely optional at Fontana so maybe more organized runs that include a meal that are made public for registration would be a good way to offer more solutions. I skipped out on the Joyce Kilmer Forrest Drive/Hike I had originally registered for to join the Sunshine MINIs drive instead, had I known about it before I gladly would have planned on it and the lunch it included. The Ice Cream Run was another great chance to get a sandwich and dessert for a very good price off of Fontana.
People are getting really hung up on who's making how much money off the event. I personally completely ignore it and let the laws of supply and demand, and how much perceived value I'm getting out of the deal determine what I do and don't do. If someone can figure out how to make millions off this event while offering what I feel is a fair and reasonable deal for a vacation then I'm all for it. Really I look at the event and see lots of places where more money could be made, just for the sake of making money, but that wasn't done. I don't see anything wrong with Mark being reimbursed reasonably for his time and efforts. I also respect those who help make the event possible at a volunteer level and really appreciate that. At some point though it becomes unreasonable to expect someone to volunteer to do a certain amount of work. Mark has clearly done way more work than would be expected of a volunteer and as long as he's legally the fortune he makes off the event on his taxes I'm can't complain.
I'm sure I sound like I want to leave a lot of things the way they are and telling those with complaints to shove it, and in some ways I am. But really I believe the event went really well and that adding more options in the future that can then be kept, or used to replace other less popular things is the best way to improve MOTD. There are small details of existing events that could use some refinement and that's something that the event coordinators for future events can use this thread to search out possible ideas and options to deal with.
The event could have been all sunshine and lollipops and rainbow-pooping flying unicorns and there still would be people complaining of the glare, their blood sugar level and/or their fear of horses. There's no way around that.
There is, for sure, that 'silent majority' who enjoyed the event, had no issues with or at most just a commentary on the various aspects that might need improvement. I am one of those people. I think things went off a great deal smoother than last year, with more use made of available space. Costs of everything went up since last year, and 5 bux more for registration to me was not a big deal. I did not sign up for any of the extra events, since I could not be certain that I'd be able to make it, and by the time I could, most of the sub-events had filled up. Meal prices are, unfortunately in this case, beholded to Fontana which, sadly, seems to be learning how to put the screws on people because of the convenience factor. Next year will be even more expensive because Fontana is jacking the price of accommodations up over 60 dollars a night for some of the cabins (if the rumors are true), and I am sure everything will get a commensurate raise in percentage. If nothing else, this will keep people home next year. I know if things keep going the way they are with regards to costs of living and driving, this will unfortunately have been my last trip to the Dragon.
__________________
JCW Intake|15% Alta|Milltek Catback|17x7.5 SSR Comps|215/45-17 GS-D3s|Much More
MMC #28|Motoring ID RAGE666
The event could have been all sunshine and lollipops and rainbow-pooping flying unicorns and there still would be people complaining of the glare, their blood sugar level and/or their fear of horses. There's no way around that.
There is, for sure, that 'silent majority' who enjoyed the event, had no issues with or at most just a commentary on the various aspects that might need improvement. I am one of those people. I think things went off a great deal smoother than last year, with more use made of available space. Costs of everything went up since last year, and 5 bux more for registration to me was not a big deal. ... Meal prices are, unfortunately in this case, beholden to Fontana which, sadly, seems to be learning how to put the screws on people because of the convenience factor.
+1
I'm confident that of the several hundred folks who attended, 90%+ are quite happy overall... ALL the organizers in this thread need to remember that, and stop going into defensive / nose-outta-joint mode everytime ONE individual says something that you don't deem as fair or constructive. Opinions are like... you know the quote. Having organized club events here, and having run many other types of events in a volunteer capacity over the past 25 years, I've learned to filter criticism... but I know it's hard sometimes. I've already posted my likes / dislikes.
By the way, for those longing for a "more grassroots", "less commercial" weekend... there are several to choose between in the fall. Maybe you should skip MOTD from now on and go to one of those. Just don't show up at mine, please. I don't want to hear you b1tchin about the lack of organized events or lack of vendors.
Since Phil brought up dinner prices I wanted to address how the cost structure works.
In general the club hosting the dinner gets to decide what type of menu items are selected. That obviously can effect the total cost of the dinner per person and is its biggest component. From that there is sales tax, 20% gratuity, 6% for running this through the NAM store, and a dollar or two for the hosting club to help fund their yearly local events or donate to the charity of their choice.
With the above in mind its really up to the club on what they wish to provide at the dinner food-wise. They can make it moderate or very nice based on how many and what type of entrees are offered and cost varies based on that. This year since we had two low cost meals in the middle the groups coordinating the welcome and farewell dinners wanted to provide nicer meals for those nights.
Compared to MINIs in the Mountains my experience with Fontana catering and the cost structure has been very good and I can tell you that they work very hard to accomodate our requests to keep costs down as much as possible. Last year at MINIs in the Mountains not only did we have a 20% gratuity but there was something in the neighborhood of a 40% upcharge for a resort fee. That made even hamburgers and hot dogs really expensive and why this year there will be some offsite dinners organized.
Dragon Flyer
for a week & not getting enough pulled pork
This year, not a single soul even offered to play. 
It was successful 2 years ago, however, and went well with the Cigar Salon. We were able to make a donation to a group of musicians in New Orleans who had been all but wiped out by Katrina.
Very Blue
I'm can't complain.
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